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Spokes Public Meeting - Tackling Road Danger Wed 14 June

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  1. Rosie
    Member

    SPOKES PUBLIC MEETING – TACKLING ROAD DANGER

    Wednesday 14 June, 7.30-9.30pm, Doors open 6.45 for coffee, stalls & chat. Tea/Coffee served until 7.15
    Augustine United Church, 41 George IV Bridge, Edinburgh

    Our public meeting on June 14 will hear and debate the issues and possible solutions with the police, an MSP and road-danger university researchers. We hope the talks, questions, discussion and networking will result in new ideas, opportunities and useful link-ups.
    Speakers:-

    •Operation Close Pass PC Dominic Doyle … Using an undercover police cyclist, with helmet-cam, to identify drivers passing cyclist too close

    •Default 20mph limt … Mark Ruskell MSP - A bill in the Scottish Parliament to make 20mph the default urban speed limit

    •Reducing danger from large vehicles … Dr Caroline Brown ... The Urban Institute, Heriot-Watt University

    •Vulnerable road user safety, including by age … Suzanne Meade … Transport Research Unit, Edinburgh Napier University

    followed by a one-hour audience QA/ panel discussion chaired by Kirsty Lewin, trustee of Sustrans UK

    Stalls - so chance to buy newest East Lothian map, hot off the press.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/2017/05/public-meeting-tackling-road-danger/

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. toomanybikes
    Member

    Did the Close Pass youtube links ever get shared? I can't seem to find them..

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. Dom D
    Member

    @toomanybikes

    The YouTube links had been sent to me by @Frenchy. I'd hoped had technology and time allowed to have talked through the other hazards in addition to the 'closeness' of the overtake. I did get the opportunity to talk through with @Frenchy at the end of the meeting though which I hope was useful to him.

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    ^

    This video shows the problem with 'cycle lanes' and vehicles parked in them. Ultimately the van close passes in the face of incoming traffic effectively creating three vehicles in two lanes.

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    ^

    Highlights the need for maintaining a primary position but the driver here at the first sign of a a gap squeezes through again towards incoming traffic. Note the good driving from the vehicle behind not following and holding back. This is great because it really highlights the poor driving standard when presented in court.

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    ^

    A compilation of terrible overtakes on the A702. Double whites, speed, closeness. A recipe for disaster.

    I appreciate we've all at least personally witnessed similar if not worse and the terrible driving thread on here has far more examples.

    The links are posted for the benefit of those that maybe don't practice the 'dark art' of bike cameras and are certainly not intended for debate or public trial on here. Hopefully we all agree this is exactly the sort of thing we all want to eradicate and the reason why there is an ongoing need for Op Close Pass Uk wide?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. toomanybikes
    Member

    Thanks for this. Very informative.

    I sometimes find it hard to hold my nerve in the second scenario when the car behind is very close and find myself drifting towards the curb.

    I've recently added a camera to my bike and wonder just how bad an overtake should be before calling 101 and passing the footage on. Do educational letters ever get sent out if the driving potentially isn't quite at the level to produce a careless driving charge? I think I have some footage from yesterday which is again bad driving but potentially not quite careless driving bad.

    Also I think you said you often get sent pictures of cars in the bike box but because pictures don't say anything about what light phasing led to that situation, nothing can be done with it. I don't know if video which does show the light phasing is of interest? for example if it shows complete disregard bordering on contempt:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. NiallA
    Member

    I've just come across the Edinburgh Polie Division's Facebook post about this meeting. I'm feeling somewhat grumpy about the second paragraph (quoted in its entirety):

    "Over the past month we've been engaging with members of the public to ensure motorists know to give cyclists safe distance, while also engaging with cyclists to remind them of their own responsibilities while on the road."

    Is that really what Operation Close Pass is designed to do? Or is it designed "to ensure motorists know to give cyclists safe distance" (full stop). What does the Op Close Pass mat for cyclists look like? I don't believe there have been any publicity shots of it in the press...

    West Midlands seem to have looked at KSI figures and targeted the intervention to reduce the behaviour leading to the largest number of accidents ie inattention from drivers of motor vehicles. Why is that so hard to do in Scotland?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. gkgk
    Member

    I agree with Nialla, this easy pr line of suggesting cyclists are part of the problem and need educating is directly contrary to what the W Mids police guy wrote. Someone on fb should be asking the Ed police whether this is really their view, to contradict the W Mids reasoning, or whether they just misspoke.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. gibbo
    Member

    @NiallA

    For some reason, Edinburgh police feel the need to slur cyclists every time cycling safety is brought up.

    It's ingrained bigotry.

    (Unlike WM Police who seem to just focus on facts and don't see cyclists as criminals who are "asking for it.")

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. Nelly
    Member

    I don't think the police are branding cyclists as criminals.

    Being an idiot on the road isn't exclusive to motorised transport.

    There are many cyclists who do things which most of "us" would not recognise as positive or sensible behaviour, and I guess this line simply acknowledges that.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. gembo
    Member

    The mat was out at bike breakfast.

    WMP very effective n social media. Very good blog. Presume they will publish stats showing reduction in close passes.

    Up here just us that knows about this?

    My pal is just back from 2100km cycle on west coast of Ireland. 15 days and he had six incidents he felt were poor driving. We were out on Sunday and had roughly the same number of instances of bad driving in one half day.

    People are in too much of a hurry here to get to the next traffic delay

    The motoring lobby is very powerful. Today I will pass countless cars going into Edinburgh driven by a single driver who will go straight to his/her place of employment at no cost to them bar a bit of petrol and wear and tear on their cars and minds. There is no war on motorists

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. gibbo
    Member

    @nelly

    Being an idiot on the road isn't exclusive to motorised transport.

    But driving dangerously close to cyclists is.

    And that was meant to be what Operation Close Pass is about.

    However, because it's Police Edinburgh, they couldn't resist adding some anti-cylist agenda to it. The implication - as ever - being that some cyclists are asking for it.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. Frenchy
    Member

    I mean, it's probably true that they've spoken to the occasional cyclist during the operation. I wouldn't be surprised if that sentence was mostly an attempt to avoid a load of anti-cyclist, "they all jump red lights" comments under the article.

    Quite clear from @Dom_D's talk that the operation itself has the correct focus, though.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. gibbo
    Member

    @frenchy

    I wouldn't be surprised if that sentence was mostly an attempt to avoid a load of anti-cyclist, "they all jump red lights" comments under the article.

    Or to pander to it, and help reinforce those stereotypes?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. Dom D
    Member

    "Over the past month we've been engaging with members of the public to ensure motorists know to give cyclists safe distance, while also engaging with cyclists to remind them of their own responsibilities while on the road."

    Whilst I didn't write the 'blurb' I would say it is a fair summary of my activity. During the OpClose Pass days of action I have targeted exclusively car drivers. When I have been on mobile patrol I target ALL road users who break the law in front of me. Occasionally that does include cyclists.

    Photos from red light camera activations around the city show that 'bicycle users' disregard red lights on occasion. Yes it's a small minority versus the number of law abiding ones but it happens. You are not going to see me sacrificing Close Pass to target red lights but if you do it in front of me (or my colleagues) whether it be in a marked or unmarked car I'm going to deal with it. I will and I have. Therefore 'engaging with cyclists' maybe a bit of 'boss speak' but it's probably fair.

    I'm committed to Close Pass. I was joined yesterday by Road Policing officers from Fife and Centra as part of preparations. I've got my social media course in July so should see a change then. At the moment our rules are very different from WMP governing it's use.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. Nelly
    Member

    "The implication - as ever - being that some cyclists are asking for it"

    I am as guilty of confirmation bias as the next person, but I dont think thats true at all.

    If PolScot Edin thought that, then Dom D might as well quit (which he isnt doing).

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. NiallA
    Member

    @Dom D
    "During the OpClose Pass days of action I have targeted exclusively car drivers."

    So is it fair to say that the remit of Op Close Pass is "to ensure motorists know to give cyclists safe distance" rather than "to ensure motorists know to give cyclists safe distance, while also engaging with cyclists to remind them of their own responsibilities while on the road"? I know this seems nit-picky, but the first wording seems close/ identical in spirit to what WMP were doing (and were widely praised for), whereas the second seems to betray an institutional mindset that doesn't quite "get it" with regard to bike vs car KSI rates (I don't know if you have analysed Edinburgh area numbers in the way WMP did for theirs, but they certainly seemed clear about where the risk emanated from, and it wasn't people on bikes). That's important because it feeds into the implications for "our" wider interactions with Police Scotland - you can't handle every possible piece of dangerous driving/ accident, so we need to feel that as cyclists we are going to be treated seriously as road users (and that OP Close Pass and related efforts don't all hinge on you personally).

    I'm completely happy with the idea that you and your colleagues should pursue road traffic offences whenever you are in a position to, and it will help us all by making the roads safer. I'm just wondering why your colleagues seem unable just to say "we're going to tackle bad driving" when that is the issue at hand.

    </end rant>

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. NiallA
    Member

    "We're paying special attention to the burgling community and trying to reduce offending, but we will be speaking to the non-burgling community as well"....

    I guess that is the impression I am left with by that text...

    (so not quite </end rant> then... sorry!)

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. Dom D
    Member

    "We're paying special attention to the burgling community and trying to reduce offending, but we will be speaking to the non-burgling community as well"....

    Should read...

    We're paying special attention to the burgling community and trying to reduce offending, but we will be speaking to the non-burgling community as well if they commit offences.

    In respect of accident stats, yes we looked at numbers. In Edinburgh in the last two years we have seen 398 collisions between pedal cycles and motor vehicles with 68 of those serious and 1 fatality That is ultimately the motivation for me to drive Close Pass. It's 398 too many. We published these figures at the start of the activity. If anything it justifies the resources, given that road safety doesn't even make it into the top 5 priorities from members of the public when polled. It is one of our priorities.

    It's hard to draw fair comparisons between Edinburgh and WMP or Scotland and WMP given the geographical sizes, populations and any other number of factors.

    What is similar though is the high percentage of collisions at junctions which is more (but not exclusively) linked to minor injuries and the 'Close Pass' scenario which is linked to the killed or seriously injured.

    Close Pass has the benefits of targeting the most dangerous driving manoeuvre as well as making drivers aware of cyclists on the road. During the education they're told about left hooks, junctions, pinch points and two abreast.

    "I'm just wondering why your colleagues seem unable just to say "we're going to tackle bad driving" when that is the issue at hand."

    The answer is simple. One of our RP priorities is 'Influence driver and road user behaviour'. The party line will always be the blurb. The fact we're doing Close Pass and senior bosses are asking for it in their areas shows what we want to target.

    To the general public reading the Facebook post it tells them what we're doing. If they read it and they know, great, that's the best I can hope for.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. gibbo
    Member

    "I guess that is the impression I am left with by that text..."

    I keep thinking about police raising awareness about the evils of wife beating.

    "Over the past month we've been talking to* wife beaters to ensure they know wife beating is wrong, while also talking to beaten wives to remind them to not provoke their husbands."

    (*Note: "Talking to," not prosecuting. This is still the educational phase of tackling wife beating.)

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. Dom D
    Member

    'I keep thinking about police raising awareness about the evils of wife beating.'

    Good idea! I'll see if I can be reassigned?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. neddie
    Member

    Please could we have the Operation Close Pass chat on its related thread.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17633

    Also, I think we should support Dom D as much as possible during his greatly appreciated efforts. To change the entire thinking of the Police force will take some time... Let's not antagonise the guy who is here to help.

    Thanks.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "If anything it justifies the resources, given that road safety doesn't even make it into the top 5 priorities from members of the public when polled. It is one of our priorities."

    That's good to see, because it highlights the realities of asking the public and then acting on what they say, but not necessarily just the things they mentioned/want as priorities.

    Difficult...

    Making decisions based on 'focus groups' (even 'balanced' ones) doesn't always end well.

    Perhaps there should be a referendum on Road Safety.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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