CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Minister for trunk roads

(70 posts)
  • Started 8 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

123

  1. crowriver
    Member

    I'm sure there's another road-building madness thread somewhere, but I couldn't be arsed to find it. If someone else can, feel free to post the link here.

    Anyhow, spotted this story on soshul meedja this morning:

    "'Temporary' traffic lights removed from A82 road after 35 years"

    http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1320105-traffic-lights-removed-from-a82-highland-road-at-pulpit-rock-after-35-years/

    Ho ho ho. What a witty headline eh? It got the various motorists chortling away and waxing philosophical.

    Anyway, within the story we learn that the viaduct upgrade to this short stretch of A road cost £9.2m. Then came Roads Minister Derek Mackay's gushing boast.

    He said: "The A82 is not only a vital lifeline for businesses and local communities but a very popular route for visitors to Scotland, and it’s why we have pumped £57m into the road’s upgrade and maintenance since 2007.

    "Our multimillion schemes are improving journeys and the new viaduct at Pulpit Rock now takes traffic over Loch Lomond’s shoreline is both breathtaking and a significant engineering achievement."

    Is it just me? Or is there something deeply wrong with a society where concreting over the landscape to marginally improve traffic conditions is a thing to be proud of?

    I'm also staggered that on this one road, the A82, £57 million has been spent in less than 8 years. Just on one A road.

    It makes me feel depressed. The struggle over scraps that active travel interests are engaged in, when such largesse is lavished on trunk roads, makes for a grim comparison.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Min
    Member

    Better get used to it, now that the SNP has a monopoly in Scotland the road, dual carriageway and spare bridge building can only increase.

    (yes it disgusts me too)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "The SNP OUGHT to be the 'cycling party' with its greener/fairer/nicer slogans - the policies didn't quite follow."

    http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14787

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Morningsider
    Member

    crowriver - I don't mean to depress you further, but you missed the Scottish Government's big road building announcement from yesterday:

    https://transportscotland.presscentre.com/content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=690&NewsAreaId=2

    A snip at £3,000,000,000, I'm sure you will agree - roughly 100 years worth of Scottish Government cycling expenditure.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. crowriver
    Member

    @Morningsider, well we knew it was coming.

    Note the language from Brown:

    "The Scottish Government has given a clear commitment to dual the A96..."

    Clear. Commitment.

    As opposed to the language used for active travel investment.

    Shared. Aspiration. Vision.

    The difference, as I've said all along, is that the SNP believe in road building as a symbol of "progress" or "economic development" or some crapola like that.

    In comparison the SNP felt forced by other parties while in minority government to promise ambitious climate change targets, active travel targets, etc. They simply don't believe in these issues and pay lip service to them.

    They're not quite as hostile to active travel as they are towards (for example) the Edinburgh trams (another commitment "foisted" upon the SNP minority government): they don't go out of their way to explicitly distance themselves, sabotage projects, etc. However their "support" always feels distinctly half hearted at best.

    I mean, look at Brown's personal political history. His radicalisation and awakening to the SNP cause was through the Skye bridge tolls civil disobedience, and he still boasts proudly of his non-payment of fines for refusing to pay bridge tolls. If that is not deep emotional and political investment in the drivist mindset, I don't know what is. That whole thing was also irrational. Did those same drivers refuse to pay the ferry fare before the bridge was built?

    (Yes, I know there was other political symbolism at work: the Tory imposed PFI bridge run by private interests must have rankled for many. The question remains though: why should it be free to use just because it's a bridge rather than a ferry? Same goes for the bridges across the Forth).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. neddie
    Member

    The irony is, is that what attracts visitors to the Highlands in the first place, is the very fact that it is not (yet) covered in vast roads / dual carriageways / concrete.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. crowriver
    Member

    "It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it."

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The question remains though: why should it be free to use just because it's a bridge rather than a ferry? Same goes for the bridges across the Forth

    Well obviously ferries cost lots of money to build (£42m for Calmac's latest Stornoway ferry), have a limited lifespan (20-30 years) and have running costs like fuel, crew costs, marine insurance, repairs and maintenance, docking fees. Unlike roads, which cost nothing (they're an investment, not a cost), never need rebuilt, widened or replaced and actually make money hand-over-fist.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. wingpig
    Member

    It's the equivalent of the "I would if I could download one" rebuff to the "you wouldn't steal a car" anti-video-piracy advert - a continuous road is easier to sneak across without paying than an unbridged stretch of water and the doors of a ferry.

    If anyone fancies Writing To Them, Mackay and Brown have both been to PoP, so can hopefully be found somewhere in a photograph in which one of the feeder rides' flags is also in shot- Brown's assertion to the early-leaving Dugdale in that transport debate last year that he is not frightened of Easter Road could perhaps do with a bit of "well, here are a couple of thousand people who were only riding on the roads protected as part of a larger group or when the roads were shut to motor traffic". Sturgeon was pictured on her bicycle in the car-free-path-bestrewn-10mph-limit-with-speed-bumps-everywhere Pollok Park, not out and about on the roads - if she never goes on the roads, presumably it's because they're less pleasant than the park; if she does, she has presumably noticed the difference in suitability for the unconfident. Now that the next thing on the electoral horizon is SP2016 it's time to start reminding the current government's major party about simple and relatively cost-effective ways of reducing emissions/pollutions/healthcare expenditure, especially given how much they've been chumming up with the Greens recently.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "that he is not frightened of Easter Road"

    Actually I think he said it was one of his (female) civil servants.

    Which wasn't exactly 'proving' anything and just condescending.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    "especially given how much they've been chumming up with the Greens recently"

    Or is it vice versa??

    One interesting dynamic of Holyrood2016 is how much those two parties will try to avoid treading on toes.

    There's a thread for this sort of discussion -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14787

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The irony is, is that what attracts visitors to the Highlands in the first place, is the very fact that it is not (yet) covered in vast roads / dual carriageways / concrete.

    To a point, yes, but people do come from all over the world to see that vast lump of concrete which is Glenfinnan Viaduct. Maybe, just maybe, in 100 years time, American and Japanese tourists will marvel over Keith's bit of concrete around the shores of Loch Lomond.

    Or maybe not!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. neddie
    Member

    If Keithy boy could create this by Loch Lomond for £57m, I won't complain:

    I suspect we'll get something more like this though:

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. crowriver
    Member

    This is in fact what it looks like:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. neddie
    Member

    @crowriver

    Ha Ha LOL

    Not far off my 2nd pic, then ;)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. HankChief
    Member

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/loch-lomond-tourist-route-to-be-widened-1-4484034

    "The improvement will be between Tarbet, where the A83 branches off the west, and Inverarnan, just north of the head of the loch. The project is expected to cost between £290 million to £380m. Lorries and coaches often have difficulty passing each other on the tight bends of the road, which is sandwiched between the loch shore and the steep hillside. Traffic has also increased from 3,500 to 4,000 vehicles a day over the last few years".

    10 years worth of National Active Travel spending on 4,000 drivers

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. Stickman
    Member

    If there's a known safety issue on the road then drivers should slow down, dismount and push their car through the affected area, or take an alternative route. We *all* mist take responsibility for our safety on the road.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. HankChief
    Member

    https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/multi-million-haudagain-roundabout-contract-up-for-grabs/

    £18m for 500metres of Dual Carriageway...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    An extra 1.3m width of carriageway to be added. Less than a bikelane width and costs upwards of £300m!

    They've been widening that road, removing "bottlenecks", adding crawler lanes, smoothing curves etc. for years. Every time you widen/smooth/"improve" a bit of the road to the south (like they did at Pulpit Rock), you just increase the expectation and demand for smooth 60mph running to the north.

    This is the main tourist route from Glasgow / the west to Tyndrum/Crianlarich and beyond.

    I'd like to see what £380m could do on the rather parochial but absolutely fantastic rail service between those 2 points. A couple of extra trains a day would equate to 500 vehicle journeys after all.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. Frenchy
    Member

    £18m for 500metres of Dual Carriageway...

    Buying people's houses so that you can knock them down can't be cheap, either.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. crowriver
    Member

    Never mind. According to both the Scottish and UK governments, electric cars are the answer and will solve all our problems. So just carry on driving, free from any guilt.

    Er.....or maybe not.

    https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/study-tesla-car-battery-production-releases-as-much-co2-as-8-years-of-driving-on-petrol/amp/

    Oh well, until electric car Nirvana eventually arrives, we'll just drive low emissions vehicles, right?

    Er.....or maybe not.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/23/latest-diesel-car-models-remain-highly-polluting-tests-show

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. Morningsider
    Member

    How odd that traffic count data produced by the DfT shows that over the last 10 years the average annual daily flow on the A82 at the Ardlui traffic counter has increased from 2927 vehicles to a mighty 3082 - an increase of 5.3%. The average daily number of HGVs at this point has increased from 102 to 118 - 15.7%.

    The data is available here: https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-counts/cp.php?la=Argyll+and+Bute#30769

    Just click on the top line - traffic counter ref 30769

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. neddie
    Member

    Study: Tesla car battery production releases as much CO2 as 8 years of driving on petrol

    As usual for all these "anti-eco studies", they didn't take into account the amount of CO2 released manufacturing all the bits in a petrol car that don't exist in an electric car:

    - complicated engine, valves, pumps & injection system
    - cooling system
    - gearbox, clutch
    - emissions control systems, catalytic converter, etc.
    - auxiliary electrical generator, starter motor
    - fuel tank
    - consumables like oil, coolant, exhaust pipes, filters

    So, let's have a like-for-like comparison before drawing conclusions...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. Ed1
    Member

    The loch Lomond road is one of the worst roads in Scotland I have driven. As a kid my dad had a house there. The high summer traffic and many buses seen a lots of accident there its looks like should be a quiet road a but a popular road north. The train was just across house but not many trains stop there even if get one unless happen to have a house near it no good as dispersed a car or a bike is possibly the most efficient way to travel around the area. As not enough people. Although even in a car near misses are the normal so be a bit of a careful cycle. Its a shame the council or park authority banned wild camping

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. Stickman
    Member

    If it's such an unsafe road then the speed limit should be reduced and average speed cameras installed - cost £15m? Widening the road will just mean people will drive faster.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. Ed1
    Member

    the speed limit is not really applicable like 40 mph or even 30mph on some bends can be unsafe few people speed on the tricky bits they drive too fast but under limit so speed cameras would not work(over 60) even if was made 50mph would be far too fast on some corners. Its when join the road to when past the station that is the worst part if recall correctly. The road is too narrow and buses have to go on other side of the road as the rocks protrude. Some parts should probably be 30 mph. The road is unusual

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. Stickman
    Member

    Yes, I'm being slightly facetious as it is a bad road but that's the usual "solution" suggested for cycling/walking.

    £380m is an enormous amount of money that could build proper cycle networks in each of the major cities in Scotland.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Improvements being carried out on the A82 at Loch Lomond two years ago. Now the road is to be widened to make it safer.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-comment-loch-upgrade-a-boon-for-all-1-4484022

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. Klaxon
    Member

    Assuming here for a moment this £380m was always going to be spent on roads

    I wonder how much further it would have gone upgrading the A85/4 corridor between Stirling and Crianlarich, in an effort to de-trunk the A82

    Then could have laid some Tarmac on the old railway that is parallel the whole way and called it the 'active travel' portion of the project

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. Klaxon
    Member

    Further observation that this is exactly half the amount that EGIP is costing to electrify the entire central belt, close several signal boxes (electronic recontrol), rebuild the QSt tunnel, rebuild big parts of Queen St and Waverley themselves, raise 100s of bridges and procure new trains.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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